Untitled - August 5, 2026

00:00:00 Speaker: Welcome to the third episode of The Inside. Today we're joined by Daniel Spinks, who is a psychology teacher and teacher at the Western Academy of Beijing. Mr. Spinks, could you please introduce yourself to the audience? briefly go down to my, my family background. Um, both of my parents were born and grew up in the East end of London. Um, my dad was born in nineteen forty one. So in the middle of the blitz in London. Um, there is a reason I'm, I'm going into this detail because for me, it's, it's important background. On the night my dad was born, the family home was bombed. They lost another home in the Second World War. So that part of London was was devastated. Um, so I think that partly explains why my family, um, don't, don't have sort of formal education. There's no, um, no one in my family had had gone to university when I went, um, but they were always interested in, in reading and learning. Very knowledgeable, intelligent people in my family. I come from quite a big family. Um, how many people, may I ask? Uh, well, a lot of them are no longer with us, but, um, I had about fourteen uncles and aunts, about twenty something, uh, first cousins, I don't know how many second cousins. Like forty something. I don't know. Um, but out of the entire family, I was the first one to go to university. So I wasn't the first to take an interest. History was a big topic of interest. Um, but yeah, it was never expected that I would I would go to university. I was never advised to go to university. It just wasn't something that I'd considered. But I ended up going for a whole variety of reasons, knowing next to nothing about universities. But I was always interested in human behaviour. Um, I vaguely remember someone asking me if I was interested in psychology, and I said that I was, but what I wanted to do was to get more of an understanding of like the sweep of, of humanity, like the story of humans. So I studied history and politics first with a sort of vague idea that maybe one day I would study psychology. He's never set plan, but I loved history. Really interested in politics, and was quite keen from an early age to become a teacher. When I left university at twenty one, I thought that was too young. So I did various other things, including travelling. Became a teacher at twenty five or trained at twenty five, and then went overseas straight away. And I loved it. So I spent ten years teaching overseas in Borneo, West Africa and Portugal. After about ten years, I think I was starting to become a bit stagnated in teaching and Phoebe had been born as well and we were quite keen. My daughter Phoebe, um, quite keen for her to know her family. So we moved back to to the UK in two thousand and ten. Yeah. Twenty ten. Um, and then at that point, I thought, this is a good time for a whole variety of reasons to, to do something else, something other than teaching. So I started training as a social worker. I did a few, a few other things, but started training as a social worker, um, focusing on children and families. And it was during that course that I, there was one unit, so social work masters, um, there's a unit on attachment theory. Um, and that, that just blew me away. I mean, I was, I was interested in the university, but you'd have a day, um, one day a week during the main part of the course and then five days a week for five or six months. So over the two years, two different placements. But when I was learning about attachment theory, there are various cases I was working on where I could see what I was reading and learning about actually in sort of evident or could be applied to explain other people's lives. And some of the struggles is actually quite a delicate case. Um, it was a case where a mother of a young child had attempted suicide, and it was quite a serious attempt. So part of my work was to try to determine whether or not the mother was stable enough, that it would be sensible for safe for the child to be returned. So that decision didn't just rest with me, but I was involved in investigating that. And it sounds a bit insensitive, but whilst she was talking about these really difficult experiences, on the one hand I was sort of sympathetic and trying to be sensitive. On the other part of my mind, I was just blown away that so many things that she was saying were completely consistent with this theory, so that I was sort of hooked. Um, and there are different approaches to social work. And my, my approach is always or often described as therapeutic because I was fascinated in, um, in behavior, but explanations for why people ended up in some really difficult circumstances. Why did some people neglect or abuse their children? Why do some people keep, uh, repeating a sort of cyclical pattern of, um, uh, getting involved in abusive relationships? Uh, why does people become homeless? All of these questions are like repeatedly. Uh, so that for me was the fascinating part is trying to understand, well, what has happened. Why does some people have these really sort of difficult, destructive lives? And I was just absolutely fascinated, blown away. So, um, quite soon after becoming a social worker, I wanted to train as well. Initially, I wanted to become a therapeutic social worker. So complex cases, um, working with families over time to try to sort of figure out and, and address these, these cyclical patterns. Um, so I trained as a psychodynamic psychotherapist again, specialising in children and adolescents. Um, and again, I was, I was just absolutely blown away. I said to my partner a few times that in some ways this is a better fit for me than teaching, even though I loved and still really enjoy teaching. Um. Yeah, I think maybe it was because it was new. It was a new branch of learning about human behavior that I just got a buzz from it. I felt excited about learning more and more, and I had a sort of thirst for knowledge that I hadn't. I'd sort of lost that a bit towards the end of that first ten year teaching experience, for various family reasons, we decided that we wanted Phoebe to, um, to go to an international school. We all believed in that approach to education more so than the state approach in the UK. I'm a great believer in um, uh, education being provided to everyone, but I'm just not a fan of the way that the successive UK, UK governments have delivered that. And I did believe in the, the IPS approach, which I taught for ten years. So that was a decision that we go back into international teaching. We do that in the UK. I can continue my training and then at some point I'll become a psychotherapist, maybe connected to schools, maybe not. That wasn't quite clear. But then again, for family reasons, we decided that we were going to move overseas. So I stopped that part of my, um, my, my career, which maybe I'll pick up again in the future. Um, but it was at that point when Phoebe would have been about eleven. Yeah. That we moved to China, to Hangzhou and then from there to web and we'd heard about web for many years. Um, and I think out of all, so I've worked in about six or seven international schools and I'd see that webs philosophy, uh, their approach to education is more sort of consistent and compatible with mine. So whilst I'm not actually my career at the moment is when I've never had some sort of finely tuned plan, but ten years ago that this wasn't what I thought I'd be doing ten years down the line. Um, but I'm quite happy to, uh, about the, the path that we've taken. Um, I think actually I've got five different university. I don't know if you call them degrees, but, um, I've been to university five times every single time. Uh, my understanding not just of that subject, but I feel like my understanding of human behaviour has, has deepened. And those experiences, the social work, two courses in psychodynamic psychotherapy. Uh. Are so compatible with teaching from my perspective that the, the understanding that I developed there has been invaluable in, in teaching. If I ruled the world, I would insist that all teachers learn about this stuff because there are so many. It's obvious to me anyway that we're teaching children. So it makes sense to try to understand the psychology of children to to better support them. Uh, I could go on about that for a long time, but to me, it's just, it's seems obvious that if you're teaching, uh, a particular group of individuals, then you need to at least attempt to understand, uh, those individuals. But the sort of the deeper rooted, uh, schemas, uh, developmental pathways that children take. So although you might my career, if you want to call it that, is not sort of followed a really set specific plan. It has followed my interests to a very large extent, and I feel like I've developed some understanding in some quite diverse subjects, all of them connected to human thinking and behavior. Uh, so I feel that I've developed a more holistic understanding. As I say to my students, there's still far more I don't know than I do. Um, uh. Even after all these years of working and learning and teaching, uh, I'm certainly not of the opinion that I know exactly what I'm talking about. And I know the answers to whatever the question is, I clearly don't. But I have developed, I think, a greater ability to, um, to sort of navigate those is complexities, but I'm still learning. I'm still nowhere near. I don't consider myself an expert in any way. Why do you think it's important for students to study psychology or even people who've, um, finished school? Why do you think it's an important subject to learn? And also, how has studying psychology improved your thinking abilities and you thinking about yourself and your own biases that you have? And how is that improved the quality of your life or has it? Uh, right. So let me go back to the first one. Uh, why do I think psychology is important? Um, we are over millions of years of evolution have developed one of the most complex objects that we are as a species that we're aware of in the universe, which is the human brain. Um. And it's has reached a level of complexity that I think is far beyond anyone's ability to, to conceive even the basic. Principles of there being one hundred billion neurons. I don't think anyone can conceive of such a large number. I think it's impossible for anyone to understand that a level of complexity that is so profound that it's it's I, I don't know, but I suspect we will never get to the stage where we completely understand the mysteries of this thing we carry around in our heads. Um, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't investigate, um, and deepen our knowledge. And I think although one hundred percent certainty I don't think is realistic in terms of human thinking and behavior. It is possible to get a more accurate understanding of why we think and behave in the way that we do. So I think for people that don't, don't learn about or investigate these topics, in some ways, we sort of maybe all of us exist in a, in a sort of self constructed bubble. But some people, I think maybe will be completely oblivious to that fact. So if you're not aware of some of these complexities and the ways in which we think, then my guess is you're much more likely to engage in cognitive biases, which have a whole host of problems in terms of your relationships with other people, your understanding of yourself, your ability to make sense of this reality that we're faced with, that we, that we experience. Um. that I think is one of the most important benefits of psychology is that hopefully it encourages you not to jump to conclusions, not to base your conclusions on insufficient evidence or a distorted understanding of the evidence, to try to minimize your biases, to try to be aware of these schemas that influence the way we we construct and make sense of our environment. So if you're not aware that you're doing these things, then the chances are, well, there's a greater chance that you will end up believing, um, inaccurate stories, uh, distortions, intentional or otherwise. And I think you just look at the news on any day and you will see example after example of the problems that are caused by people not understanding how to think critically, or people jumping to conclusions or acting based on inaccurate interpretation of evidence. There are so many problems. Um, my thinking is that the more accurately we can understand the human mind, the more precise, cautious, careful, reflective, uh, our thinking and behavior will be. So I'm convinced that one of the best ways for any society to, to improve and that means improving the lives of people is to get educated. And one of the most important ways you can be, uh, or topics you can educate yourself on, I think is the human mind. This is such an important organ. It influences everything that we do. And to me, it seems obvious that if this is the, the organ that we use to sort of. Wash out our actions and behaviors and thoughts and fears and all of those things. It's all based to a large extent anyway, on our on our minds. Maybe not just our minds, but that's what obviously it must be a key factor in that process. So to me, it just seems logical. Well. Let's understand the mind then as much as we can. It's not possible to, to to understand everything we need to understand about the mind. People have different interests and I'm quite fine with people being interesting. I think it's good, a good thing that we're interested in many things. Um, but I am baffled by people who are just naturally curious but are not interested in the mind. To me, this is one of the great mysteries, one of the most important things we can all. We should all aim to. To understand. I think the world would be a better place if more people knew or understood at least some things about the ways in which the mind works. But why do you think people avoid sometimes learning about the way that the mind works? Is it out of fear? Perhaps. Is it you're eliminating any potential excuses you have? Or now that you're aware of the biases that you have, you're not able to act in a certain manner. I know we spoke earlier this year about cognitive dissonance and topics like that. Do you think that could be a potential catalyst or reason for that? Yeah, I mean, I try to be clear, I'm not judging people who don't study. I mean, there are so many wonderful, important things to study and it's none of my business what other people find interesting or not. Um, so I think, I don't know. That's not something I can really comment on. But that second part to your question, uh, I do think that there are certain aspects of psychology and understanding the mind that are really difficult and they're, they're potentially painful. And again, I'm not trying to, to make judgments about people. None of my business what people spend their time on or their thoughts on. Um, but I think for some people it is, um, it's a really difficult topic, particularly if you're learning about things that have sort of personal resonance. Um, there's, I think there's a common misunderstanding about therapy. Therapy is often sort of lumped into one sort of amorphous blob. But there are many different types of therapy, and some delve into the sub and unconscious mind, um, uh, in much greater depth than others. And some don't attempt to, to sort of explore that part of the mind. And a common misunderstanding is that, I think is that therapy is sort of, um, there's a sort of nice fluffy sort of, um, maybe naively optimistic approach where you're trying to sort of validate and, um, uh, be really positive. I think some types of therapy, um, are a bit like that, that sort of lean much more towards the, the positive, the type of therapy that I trained in in some ways is the opposite. Um, and I remember in my training, I met some really some of the most impressive people and thinkers that I've ever met on, on the, the therapy course. Um, and in one of the, the, our, our seminars or meetings in a room like this, we were discussing like, what makes sense to you emphasize the positive or do you explore the negative? And the, the therapist was, well, obviously it's the negative. That's why we're here. But if everything was positive, then fine. You don't need therapy. The person, the individual is in therapy, presumably because there's some sort of problem. So we need to explore the problem. Um, and quite often the the individuals don't even know what the root cause of the problem is. That's why they're in therapy. They're using another mind to help. Hopefully, the aim is to help them explore those, um, deeper reasons why whatever the problem is that they're facing. That's really difficult. So admitting, for example, admitting to yourself that some of your actions are are not good or some of your thoughts are you might feel guilty about or I'm sure anyone can use their imagination. There are so many things and experiences that people do not like to admit to themselves. It's safer in some ways to ignore that, to pretend that that everything's great and everything's wonderful in the back of your mind, knowing that that's not true. Um, for people that have been traumatized, one of the difficult things about therapy or psychodynamic psychotherapy is that it risks retraumatizing that person. So skilled psychotherapists can navigate that and avoid that. But there's that risk. I think that basic principle of exploring some some really tough, difficult aspects of yourself, feelings you have about yourself and other people. A lot of people just don't want to, um, to explore that. I understand. Again, no judgment. Um, but I think some people that might deter some people from learning about, um. Sort of parts of themselves that maybe they would prefer didn't exist or they prefer to, to ignore. Um, but yeah, so this sounds a bit mean, but it's ignorance, whether it's willful or not, I don't think that will ever, um, successfully address the sort of deeper rooted um, foibles and anxieties, angst that I think my guess is most people have some aspects of themselves that that sort of fit that criteria. I think it's quite a rare person who's completely settled, completely accepting of themselves, their environment, everything is is sort of ticking along perfectly. I think that's if there is if there are people like that, my guess is it's a small minority. So so go back to your question. I think for some people, yeah, it's a difficult, um, it's a difficult subject. And I mean, you're continuing to learn, but what was one of the concepts or topics that were very difficult for you to wrap your head around for? Maybe it's because maybe a part of you you found in that, or maybe it's just a difficult and complex topic, but what did you find difficult? Sometimes when you sit down, you're reading a text or when you're listening to someone speak, you can't wrap your head around it at times. Or maybe you don't want to wrap your head around it, or you don't want to understand it because you fear that that reveals something deeper about yourself. Did that ever occur to you? No. Right. No. No. Uh. No. Uh. And I'm not I'm not saying that I have no issues and everything is fine. I'm not saying that at all. I'm fascinated and curious. I want to know more about my own mind. And as part one of the requirements of the the therapy course was that you have to be in therapy whilst you're learning about it. And whilst you're, you're delivering therapy to other people. How was that experience for you? Um. I, I was a little bit frustrated actually, because I wanted more from the therapist. I wanted to have someone else's insights into these deep thoughts and experiences that I was sharing. And it was useful in many ways because in that process, I was applying different theories and learning, but also sort of reflecting quite deeply on my own thinking and experiences and relationships with people going back into childhood. And the few insights that I did get, I still remember now. So that's going back like ten years, ten years ago. Um, one of the, um, lecturers, the psychotherapists on the course said that what you learn on this course will stay with you for the rest of your life. And I agree with that. And even though I'm not in therapy, I still reflect on what I learned. I still feel like I get insights into me and my thinking and my behavior that are sort of unfolding over time. Um, so different sort of assumptions that I've reached the effect of different experiences, my experience of being parented. Uh, I still feel that I'm getting insights into that. So in terms of, did I find it difficult? No, not in that sense. I welcomed it. I wanted to sort of open the floodgates and have someone sort of inspect my thinking and tell me something about myself. So maybe that's a little bit naive, because in therapy, most of the work should be done by the, the patient. Um, but yeah, I was a little bit frustrated with that. So in some ways it's the opposite. I wasn't fearful, I welcomed it, I wanted more. Because I found it so interesting. I think maybe for a lot of people, the thing that we often find most fascinating in our lives is ourselves. I think lots of people want to know. Some people don't. But I think whenever I tell people about what I teach and what my education is, quite often I have people ask me to sort of psychoanalyze or tell them something about themselves that they didn't know, and it doesn't quite work like that. Um, so did I find it difficult? No, I embraced it. I certainly found some of the intellectual challenge difficult. Um, but not in a way that I found that distressing. Um, it's my approach to education is probably a bit like my own learning is a bit different to how I teach students. Um, for example, I never took notes in seminars and lectures, I might. Well, I did write down the name of a researcher or the name of a book or paper that I would look at later. Um, but if you look at my notes quite often, it's just a blank page or just a few of those sort of notes. And my approach is I have actually said this to, to students is first getting a sort of sense of the foundations. Like what are the core principles of whatever the topic is that I'm learning? And once I'm comfortable with that, build from there. Uh, and for me, the best way to do that is to listen to people that really know what they're talking about and to ask questions and to engage in conversation. I feel that my, my own learning scaffolds from there. So when I do read these papers and books and what have you, I it resonates more, makes more sense. And I sort of explore these things in my mind as well as, um, on the paper. So it was difficult in the sense that I don't sort of absorb all of this information at once. I start at the, the core principles. Um, but I, to me, that's, I've learned over the years that that's how I learn and I, it helps me not to feel intimidated when I'm faced with a really complex task or a complex concept or theory or paper, not to feel overwhelmed just to acknowledge, oh, you're not going to understand everything straight away. So let's start with the basics. If it's an academic paper, what is the main gist of the paper? What are they actually arguing and what did they do and build from there? And it makes, uh, learning for me anyway makes it pleasurable. It makes it something that, um, I can tolerate not understanding straight away in the sort of reasonably confident, but in the hope that I can develop at least some understanding, I can build on that. That initial understanding, again, doesn't mean at all that I'm expert in any topic, but I know in going back to your question, I didn't find it difficult. I found I loved it. So yeah, I don't know if excitement is maybe going a bit too far, but there's a nice sort of. Sort of buzz, a sort of a gentle excitement, emotional engagement with the topic where I want to know more. And I have so, so many questions that I'd want to sit down with the the lecturers for a few hours, just bombard them with questions which obviously you can't do. So no, I didn't find it difficult. Doesn't mean I understood everything, but I didn't find it difficult at all, And I know you mentioned that you think it is very important for teachers to study the psychology of children. And obviously, also students studying psychology in order to maybe engage in more introspective behavior in their own lives. Um, but I've also noticed in your teaching style that you don't like to give out grades per se. I think you're more focused on feedback. Um, progressive feedback, helping each individual improve, not comparing students. Um, and I was wondering how imparting that philosophy on maybe other teachers would be beneficial or why do you think that approach or why you've chosen that approach in your teaching style from what I've gauged. Um, yeah, I've got very mixed feelings about grades for some students, it motivates them, but I would encourage those students and other people to consider what is the function of the grade? White. What is it communicating to that student? And I think in some cases it's a sense of value or achievement. And again, no judgment. That's that's everyone wants to feel valued and feel like they're making progress. And obviously the grades help to track the progress. So for some, some students, I'm still not convinced that's the the best motivation for learning. But for some students, I think it works. Um, but I think an excessive focus on grades is counterproductive for a lot of students. Um, it's the analogy of the tail wagging the dog that like the less important thing, there's a danger of that, um, sort of dominating the dog or the main thing. And what is the main thing we're doing? We're trying to, to learn, but learning for some students becomes really unattractive. What should be the byproducts? The grade. Um, so for some students, I think the grade becomes counterproductive because instead of being a sort of byproduct of the important stuff, the learning, the love of learning, the fascination is that's what I want to focus on. If the grade, the importance of the grade becomes overinflated, then that becomes like a rod or a weight for that student to bear. So that essay is not just, uh, an opportunity to explore and develop your understandings and get to sort of communicate deeper understanding of whatever the topic is, or in psychology's case, thinking and behavior, it becomes a potential threat, a potential threat to your value, your sense of yourself. Uh, and so for some students, I've seen this so many times, instead of being just just a measure or a motivator, it becomes a reason not to engage because the fear of getting a disappointing grade of I've heard this so many times of disappointing the teacher, disappointing parents, disappointing other people subconsciously. The connection is made between this task. This assignment, uh, is is now for some students has been constructed into a potential threat to their sense of self. Uh, and this is, this is counterproductive. It doesn't help. Again, I'm not making any judgments or comments about all students because people respond to grades differently. But for a lot of students, it doesn't help. It makes learning less pleasurable For some students, the opposite of what we're trying to do. It demotivates. It distorts learning into. A different process, a different experience where the conscious and or subconscious assumption is that if you don't do well, you, your your value to other people is decreased. That's just such a huge burden for a lot of people to cope with this at the sort of related assumptions are that if you don't do well in these grades, then you're not going to go to university, you're not going to get the career you want. You're not going to get the life that you want. You're going to disappoint all of these people. and whilst that doesn't apply to everyone. For some students, I think that that becomes their their construct. So for some students that can make learning just a miserable experience. Some highly capable students I've seen in the past just check out because it's too much. And I can understand that if that's what you've constructed grades and learning to be a measure of your value, then I can understand why some students consciously and unconsciously decide this is not for me. This is too much to bear. It's that yerkes-dodson curve. The stress for some people gets too high. Cognitive abilities start to decrease. Willingness to engage, to test yourself, to push the boundaries of your knowledge. Instead of being a sort of a wonderful, enriching experience, it becomes the opposite of that, becomes poisoned in some ways. So I'm really cautious about. Focusing graves. We have to do that. That's the system we're in, and I know that they're important. I'm not denying that. But there needs to be balance, and I try to encourage my students to see or understand the grades as the byproduct, the consequence of the more important stuff that you're doing, which is learning, which is testing your paw, pushing the boundaries of your knowledge and your understanding or your insights. And in some ways, it's like, I think it's exponential. Exponential. The more you learn, the more you realize that how much there is to learn and relatively how little you know, but the richer life becomes. You see things that previously you were completely oblivious to. Uh, I think life starts to take on more, or at least maybe more meaning or meaning in different ways. Life means more. You can get more insights. That's that's the important stuff. Mhm. Um, and you get to the end of, of, of your life, as all of us will. My guess is your DP grades, you might, might remember them, you might not. But what you are more likely to remember is did you have a rich and meaningful life? Did you engage with life? Did you find out? Did you explore intellectually and physically this reality that we're we experience for whatever, seventy, eighty, ninety years? That's more important. But if you do that, the important thing as well is if you do all that stuff, if learning is, is exciting and interesting and, and fascinating, the grades will come. But if you flip it and your focus is the grades, then you actually, I think for a lot of people, you're making it less likely that you get the grades that you want because you go into that exam highly stressed, less able to recall to access your memory. Less able to think clearly. So it is counterproductive in so many ways. Whereas the other approach that the enjoyment, fascination, if you do that, I think for a lot of people, that is the the more effective way to get this other thing that you want, which is the higher grades. Now, we've also heard that I think connecting the grade to one's intelligence or things like that, obviously sometimes instill a sense of fear, fear of failure. And obviously also it turns it into a journey of proving yourself rather than improving yourself. And I think if that pathway continues in your future. Right. Because it inculture that belief is inculturated through school, um, that can have really big or negative impacts in your future careers or life as well, right? I think when you look back at it retrospectively, You look at was I happy? Did I improve or was I just spending all this time trying to prove myself to others, to my family? And I think you've touched on that also in class at times. And I actually found that very insightful, and it made me think a little bit more about myself as a student as well, because we obviously all the grades are very important. We want to get the highest grades, but we actually, what I've noticed is that in your class, I learn more about myself as a writer, for example, not being concise enough. And obviously that being being more concise, being the pathway to achieving higher grades rather than if that makes any sense. But I think the journey of improving yourself rather than improving yourself is something that is quite important. I think introspective behaviour fosters that. It is a medium through which you can engage in more. Yeah, that's a nice phrase, improving rather than proving yourself. But your point about like post education life, um, a student that has constructed this, uh, I think inaccurate belief, hopefully that their value is dependent on their grades. If that is not addressed, then it seems to me highly likely that that schema, that assumption will continue. That when you go to university and then to your career and your life, if that that connection is still there, that your value is dependent on whatever the measure is, your how much money you earn or your level of seniority or whatever it might be. For some people, that's motivating and fine. Again, I'm not not judging, but I think for people that find that difficult to feel that their value is is threatened by the prospect of not earning whatever that wage is. That some people will say, well, that's what I need to be successful, or this is the career or whatever it is I need to be successful. It's not likely to increase your overall happiness. Maybe on those occasions where you do achieve something because it really means something. Um, but I suspect quite often once that achievement has been reached, then the old mindset comes back in that that that then becomes normalized and there's a need for ever more, um, increase or proving your worth to other people. So the, the, the schema and the, the cycle of thinking and behavior is something like a self-imposed oppression that you are, you're never going to. If that's your mindset, then I don't I don't know if if again, different for different people, but the risk is that you spend your entire life thinking basically the underlying thought is that you're not good enough and you need to prove yourself. You need to prove your value to other people. Um, but my guess and my hope is that for the vast well, my hope is that all students think this, but my hope may be more realistically is for the vast majority of students, the love of their parents is not conditional. It's already hopefully, and I'm not naive and I know that that doesn't always happen. But that's that's the hope is that the love that your parents have for you is unconditional. They will still love you the same amount if you've got a four or a seven. My love for my daughter is not dependent on levels of intelligence or what university she goes to, or even if she goes to university, that's already there. But convincing students that that's the case is easier said than done. And I think partly because we live in an environment where the structures are geared towards assessing and grading. And, um, that's the message that students are surrounded with. So I feel in many ways I'm sort of fighting against the tide. actually does a good job of this. I remember before I came reading or hearing that in grade six, the stop, they'd stopped giving grades. They were just giving feedback, oh, this is wonderful. This is what I this is what I really believe is an important step in the in the right direction. I know obviously with universities, there has to be a way of assessing. There has to be some sort of standardised measure. Um, I still think there are other ways of doing it that don't require the same sort of grading approach. This assumption that your, your value is dependent on grades or your wage or whatever it might be. I, that to me doesn't seem like a healthy approach to accepting your yourself and acknowledging that your value is not dependent on grades. Your parents hopefully love you unconditionally. So this thing that you think that you're getting from the grades, you've already got it in many cases, not all cases. I wish it was all cases, but you've already got the unconditional love for a lot of students. You've already got this thing that you think you really need validation. In many ways, you've already got it. This is what it feels like to have validation. So this construct that you have, that whatever it is, you could have more validation by betting, getting better grades or earning more money. I think. In some cases that might be true. I don't think that's a particularly healthy way to conceptualize yourself or relationships that it's conditional on your grades, your achievement, your money. To me, this is subjective. My personal opinion, I don't think that's a particularly healthy foundation for concepts of self or relationships. The value, I think, comes from other roots, from your relationships, from, uh, your, your actions, uh, from you trying your best by engaging in thing in whatever the, the challenge might be by, uh, embracing life and enjoying this one opportunity. We've got to live a meaningful life. Do that first. The other stuff will follow. Um, and when you're lying on your deathbed, um, my guess is that for a lot of people, um, death obviously is really difficult, but what makes it really difficult for a lot of people, I think, and I obviously don't know this. Well, actually, I know it partly through learning and partly through experiences with people that were, were, um, facing the imminent prospect of death that people that end their lives more content, more settled, more accepting. Um, I think there's a greater chance of that for people that have had a meaningful life, uh, a life that have made connections where they haven't had this misguided belief that they're constantly chasing for validation, and they constantly need to prove it with grades and money and whatever it might be. I I think I'm speculating, but my guess is that that is less likely to lead to a fulfilled life where at the end of your life you're accepting that I've I've had a meaningful life. My life has meant something. It's been enjoyable in some ways, difficult and challenging. Such is a rich and meaningful life. Um, if you, if you develop this construct that you're never quite good enough, you always need to prove yourself. That's quite a tough life, I think. Um, although it's not entirely self self-imposed, uh, it's constructed of a whole range of, of influences. I think that it is possible to change. It's very difficult to change schemas and constructs, but it's not impossible. One of the first steps is learning about the mind. This is why I think it's so important, uh, In terms of self, society, relationships and living a. Life that has meaning but also has meaning to you, where you feel you've engaged with life in a way that makes sense to you, not because you want to prove. With these trinkets and things I am a good person, I am valuable. There are other ways to to achieve that. Mhm. Yeah. Interesting. But how do you think we were speaking about childhood experiences and obviously how that incorporates certain beliefs? And how do you think that early experiences of trust, rejection, instability, neglect, and many other factors become patterns that a person carries into their adulthood? And that connects to attachment theory, which you spoke about earlier. What do you think? What are your opinions? Um, I think that we're, we're born With virtually or certainly no conscious understanding of this reality that we're born into. We know virtually nothing when we're born. So we have to to make sense of our environment using these enormously complex brains. Uh, we have to construct meaning. We have to sort of learn the rules of, of life. It's different in different cultures. There are some consistent themes. Um, but there are obviously differences between cultures, their differences, uh, in different families and there are individual differences, but that young child is developing what in attachment theory they refer to as the internal working model. Um, or it's the same thing as schemas they're developing, the rules of life. The blueprint. The template. The template for us. For their concept of themselves. Their concept of other people. Their concepts of reality. And partly because these schemas, internal working models, these constructs, they're developed at a really young age. Quite often we are completely unaware that we have assumptions about ourselves. Um, and these, these assumptions and these schemas can be really deeply embedded, not necessarily fixed, but they can be really deeply embedded. So the schemas can be really deeply embedded. I think quite often we're unaware. So like really sort of like core schemas about your, your value, what you mean to other people, um, whether you are a lovable, important to other people, whether you can trust other people so that that young child learns very early on whether or not usually the parents, but other people in their lives are dependable, whether they can rely on them to provide the emotional support that they need. So if a child is is. Not given that love, care, attention, or enough from their perspective to help them feel secure. And that, let's say just for example, that child has grown up with the belief that might be sort of communicated on a daily basis, that in order to, to receive the love, care, and attention that you need, you need to prove yourself. You're not quite as good as your, your older brother or sister. Uh, look at their grades. You need to be more like that person. So if you're receiving that message on a daily basis, that's quite a hard message. But we know that it happens in families. Why don't you be more like your brother? Why don't you stop whatever it is that the parents don't like? night so that child is likely to grow up more likely to grow up with an assumption that they're not quite good enough. That in order to to feel validated and accepted by other people, they have to prove themselves. And that that child who grows into an adolescent and adult might not be completely aware that that's the schema that they've developed at a very young age. So they have this this assumption might not even be consciously aware of it, that in order to feel good about myself, I need to prove myself. And that's, that's just one example of an almost infinite variety of schemas that we develop about ourselves. Um. But the assumption was that what happens in a child's first few years of life doesn't matter because they don't remember it. There's so much evidence to demonstrate that that's not true. That even though they might not consciously be able to access those memories subconsciously, they do still remember it. It is still other experiences that have contributed towards schemas and constructs that are deeply and typically deeply embedded and form the foundation of their assumptions about themselves and life and other people and so on. So that's, that's a more securely attached child is arguably well, there's evidence to support is much more likely to grow up being able to form trusting relationships with other people, to feel balanced, to feel accepting of themselves, not to perceive, for example, disagreement with other people as a threat to themselves, much more likely to. Children that learn to integrate the good and the bad are much more likely to be able to understand that other people have both good and bad properties. So when that person disagrees with me or that person is is in a bad mood, it doesn't mean that that's a bad person. It means that that is a person who's having a bad experience at the moment. So that there's, I think, a greater capacity for seeing the greyness, understanding the greyness in life. If you're feeling a bit more settled and accepting of yourself, more secure in your attachments. For some people that don't have developed that attachment style or that ability to integrate good and bad, to see the grey, um, differences of Of opinion are much more likely to be perceived as a threat. There's a cognitive bias there that this person that criticized my decision or disagreed with what I was doing, instead of that being an exchange of views for some people, that becomes perceived as a threat, and for some people, a threat that needs to be destroyed. It's a more dichotomous approach to life. You can, again, look at the news and you'll see examples of that type of thinking on a fairly regular basis in international politics and and throughout history as well. And on a day to day basis, I think we all know people that find it really difficult to disagree with, or if other people disagree with them, it's perceived as a threat to their value. I obviously don't know what everyone's childhood is, but I do think that these schemas that we develop in childhood. It's difficult to understand an argument against it, but how else are we going to make sense of this environment? We have to construct like the rules of of culture, the rules of behaviour. They've got they must come from somewhere. Where do they come from? They come from your environment, your parents, your friends, your family, your community. They are the constructs that we develop in life and they form the foundations for all thinking and behaviour. It's not to say that they cannot change, but the possibility of change is far more likely if you have some understanding of the human mind. If you don't, it's like you're fumbling in the dark. You're much more or much less likely to be able to change an insecure attachment or a distorted thinking. If you're not even aware that you're thinking in that way in the first place. So yeah, childhood for me. Well, I mean, all years are important, but that's part of the importance of childhood. It's a vital importance. Often, I think underestimated, maybe less so in recent decades, but I still yeah, I still think it's easy to underestimate the importance of childhood because most people don't remember that period in their lives. Babies don't don't respond. But there's so much evidence that babies do respond. They are they do pick up like two parents who are arguing. Even if the baby is not getting visibly upset, they're still registering this this friction between people. They're learning something about their environment. They see that on a daily basis that will affect their, um, their internal working model. And that leads me to another question. And this is without discussing any confidential details and looking back at your work as a social worker, Were there any situations where an adult's harmful or destructive behavior you you suspected was because of their environments that they grew up as a child and part those those schemas that were imparted onto them? Did you have those suspicions and why did you think that? And do you occur that often? Do you make that connection oftentimes. Every single case. Mhm. At literally every case. So whether it's the perpetrator of violence, the victim of, uh, or someone that this sounds really insensitive, and I'm certainly not blaming victims of domestic violence for, uh, for their experiences, but there are several cases I've worked on where there's a cycle of, um, going from one relationship to another and all of those relationships being abusive. And again, to emphasize, I'm not blaming victims of violence for that, but there are reasons why some people keep saying to repeat these really destructive relationships. There is not a single, I don't know, the childhood experiences of every single case I worked on. But I struggle to understand how. Childhood experiences would not have influenced the. The violent behavior, the self-destructive behavior, the sexual abuse that, um, that I investigated both in terms of perpetrators and victims. Um. I suppose the only, the exception is the, the young children who still, I mean, obviously they are victims or were and still are victims of abuse, neglect and so on. So yeah, maybe it's not appropriate to. Sort of explain them being victims because of their childhood behaviors. So if I'm thinking about the adults, every single one of them, their behaviors are, I would suspect to a large extent are influenced by their own childhood experiences. I think it must apply to everyone, regardless of whether it's a serious case or not. All of us are products of our our histories and our assumptions and schemas. We all have them. Um, so yeah, in answer to that question, yeah, every case, um, I think childhood experiences have at least some influence. The level of influence is dependent on a whole range of things because people change. Uh, and it's not the case. I think that whatever, like your childhood experiences will dictate who you become. We do have free will to some extent. We do have agency to some extent. Our environments change, our relationships with other people change. Um, we can make a conscious decision to change. So it's not like we're, we're the rest of our lives are dictated by our early experiences. And the extent to which they influence is dependent on a whole range of things. But one of the most important influences on the extent to which your childhood experience influences is the individual. I think, um, you can make conscious decisions to learn about these things or to engage in therapy or to to make changes to your life. And change can be really slow and difficult and painful. Um, but yeah, we, we have choice to some extent, but ultimately it's, I think. I think it has to influence to some extent, I would guess everyone. But doesn't that also illustrate the importance of, um, fostering a very beneficial and positive environment for children? Because a lot of parents obviously want to do that, but they may unintentionally be creating a negative environment. Uh, and what do you suggest you have through your experience? Have you learned any things that could be done in order to foster that environment? Yeah, many, um, I think um, Um, there's a phrase used in attachment theory and when it's applied to education, um, and that is, uh, about the importance of um, avoiding, um, avoid the emotional distance of discipline or something like that. But it basically means that for teachers and parents try to separate the behavior from the value of the child. So a common, a common approach to parenting is and teaching is to use shame. Uh, you should be ashamed of yourself for that or whatever the behavior might be. Um, go to your room or whatever it might be. So what you're communicating to that child is that their love, if in a parental context or their value as a student is dependent on them, uh, Doing what the adult wants them to do or what's expected of them. And from a child's perspective, I think that's a really difficult message. That feeling of shame can be crushing for a child. My, my thinking is a more effective approach to to teaching and to parenting is to maintain the relationship, but address the behavior. So from a parent to a child's perspective, I would love for you as a child, no matter what you do, you could go to prison for an awful crime. I will still love you. That's secure. That's fixed in stone. Well, maybe not fixed in stone, because love is quite amorphous and it changes. But the basic principle of that, that love and that value that's there. Mhm. What I don't like or what I don't appreciate is this behavior that's problematic for these reasons. Mhm. Um, so instead of using that approach where the value of the child is integrated with their achievements, their behavior. A little bit of separation, I think is is really important. And that was also helpful as well because it enables you to address all sorts of problems. In fact, whatever the problem is, whatever the behavior is, if we're on the same team, if the love in a parental sense or the value of the student, that's, that's non-negotiable. That's, that's always there, then we can talk about all sorts of problematic behaviors and challenging behaviors in, in a way that's, that's not as confrontational and makes it easier to address, right? It makes it much easier to address. And it also means it's much more likely that the child, the, the son daughter student is going to be more open and more willing to engage because they, they, they're not feeling shamed. They're not feeling ostracized or cut off. Uh, that's you're not, it's not you that has lost value, but this behavior, we need to address the behavior. If the alternative approach is, is used where you're communicating this sort of exclusionary message to the child child's feeling really upset. Uh, you've rejected the child, so the child is rejecting you back. And then you're saying to that child, right now, let's talk about your behavior, whether it's your own child or student, the chances are that student either won't want to engage or will reject you back, or the behavior will escalate. And the thing that you want to address, you're not going to address because they're either they're not going to tell the truth or they're going to hide things, or they won't want to think about that, that behavior in a more sort of analytical way. Um, and the, it becomes a confrontational relationship where any problem is far less likely to be resolved. If it's a more collaborative approach where we have core values or the relationship that's secured. This is not what we're talking about. Um, that for me, I think is really important. So I will give you a little anecdote. Uh, my own daughter, I'm guessing and hoping she won't mind me saying this, but she was well behaved and ninety five percent of the class of the time. Um, and I remember, uh, when she was about three, I can't remember. She did something like she sort of threw a tantrum or something of that nature. Um, and instead of doing what a lot of parents I know do, like go to your room, think about what you've done. Um, I went with her to, to the room and sat with her. Uh, and I remember her sitting next to me and looking at me sort of sideways, I guess thinking, why are you in here with me? And then when she'd calmed down a bit, then we had a conversation about what was going on, uh, in that experience, why she felt so upset about it and what other ways we could, uh, or other behaviors we could use to, to address whatever it was that upset her in the first place. So I'm not saying I'm a perfect parent at all, but my thinking there is that I'm not shaming, I'm not excluding. The value is still there. I'm still with you. We're figuring this out together. And that enables us to reflect on the behavior in a way that's not confrontational, a way that's not making that child feel that they're not good enough or, um, so I think that is really important. Actually, one other thing to add to that, it's one of the phrases I use in class a lot about tolerating uncertainty. And I think for parenting and relationships, that's really important as well. So we all hear gossip. I'm not a great fan of gossip, but we all hear it. Some people spread it. Um, and there's a tendency for a lot of people to believe what they hear, particularly if it's scandalous behavior. Oh, did you hear what this person did? Um, and I think that's a really good example of the problem of not tolerating uncertainty. Jumping to conclusions. Quite often engaging a lack of critical thinking and cognitive biases. And it can be really destructive. So I think a really not that people are asking for advice, but if they were to ask for advice, I would encourage that in, in like day to day personal relationships. Tolerate uncertainty. You hear that gossip? Uh, don't necessarily believe it, even if you think the source is accurate. I my typical response is, well, where did you get this information? Um, how certain are you? Like what's what's the evidence? Uh, is it possible that you've heard a distorted version of this event? Let's not make a judgment about this person, but we don't even know if what we're hearing is true. If it's not true, you make a judgment. How awful is that? That's a terrible thing to do. So I think that's one example on of like day to day basis where that type of thinking, um, can be useful, important, I think. Uh, uh, again, how people live their lives is to a large extent, none of my business, uh, and what people choose to think about and learn about again. Um, I suppose to some extent it is because I'm a teacher, I think that there are several really important, um, messages or things that I've learned or feel that I've learned over the years. Um, and one of the most important is the argument that we do have agency that all of us develop schemas, assumptions, internal working models that we're, we're not in control of. We don't choose what environment you're born into, what parents you have, what culture you, um, you're exposed to. say there are obviously there are influences and quite often really deeply embedded constructs that we have. From early childhood. But as I was saying before, these, the extent to which they dictate or determine your future is dependent on a range of influences. But one of the most important is you. Uh, and for me, education generally, but particularly an education about psychology, it's one of the most effective ways for you to start having more influence on your life, on the meaning of your life and the direction of your life. So if you don't learn to think critically, if you don't just mean in formal education, you learn in a whole range of ways. But if you don't learn to think critically. If you don't get educated, whatever, whatever path that is. Uh, and if you don't understand, at least to some extent the mind, then you're limiting your ability to, to influence the course of your life. And I don't, I don't buy that. I don't mean like your, your career and, and that, um, that sort of pathway, but I mean about you, about your life, about what's important in, in your life. Um. In some ways it's like if you choose to learn to think critically, to learn at least some things about human thinking and the mind and behavior. It's like you're giving yourself, you're increasing your, it's like in, is it a superpower or not? I don't know, but you're increasing your agency, your ability to to navigate your life. It's like you're, you're the equivalent or analogy would be in that computer game where you collect weapons and power ups and whatever it is that children play. That to me, that's, that's an equivalent of, of education and particularly education of psychology. You're making yourself more able to navigate life, but also to cope with life's inevitable challenges and difficulties. In some ways, there is an advantage to having difficult experiences. They're important. They're formative. Um, people that have learned to think critically. you're better equipped to cope with the uncertainties and challenges, uh, in in life. If you've developed those sort of insights, I think you're less likely to be open to manipulation from others, from whether it's political messages on a day to day sense. You're probably less likely to get involved in in disputes or at least unresolvable, uh, disputes. You're more probably if you don't do those things, you're more likely to, um, to find interactions with other people distressing. Um, you're going to be less understanding if you don't do these things, you're going to be less understanding of the experiences that other people have as well and the difficulties that other people have. So you learn these things and hopefully you become more understanding of other people, more able to tolerate, uh, Um, challenging behavior from other people, more able to tolerate the inevitable, unexpected forks in the road challenges that life throws at you. Everyone will have those in life. Um, to me, the, the argument about education, critical thinking, learning about psychology, it seems so obvious that if you want to feel protected, if you want to have some say in or more of a say in navigating life, if you want to protect yourself, then learn this stuff because it's worth more than money in many ways. And again, I'm not saying I've cracked it. In some ways it feels like a burden. Like the the more, you know, sometimes it's quite painful. And I think there's an argument for some people that ignorance is bliss. I disagree with that, but I can see why some people wouldn't. For me, even though it can be quite painful or difficult learning these things. I would choose that ten times out of ten every single people I was given that option. Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge, a bit of pain, but rich, meaningful or more rich? More meaningful life. I'll go for that one. The second one. Every single time. Um, yeah, I think that's good advice for everyone. Whether people take it or not is is up to them. Um, yeah, that's what I would say. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to meet with us with the podcast. Uh, we appreciate that you've, uh, imparted so much knowledge on us and a little bit of your experience as well. Um, this is episode three of The Insight featuring Daniel Spinks. Thank you so much for listening and see you soon. Thank you, Mr. Spinks.